[skippy the wonder dog]

Made an accidental discovery that pretty much torpedoes the idea that the sinking in Nautical Disaster is the Bismarck.

First of all, as we all know the song places the disaster in the afternoon, off the coast of France, with a casualty count of 4490. The problem is to find a disaster that bad; the Titanic sinking only killed 1500, and only an aircraft carrier has a crew that size. The other possibility would be a troopship.

The Bismarck was sunk in the morning (~1030), with a casualty count of just over 2000 (2,249 crewmen are known to have served on the ship). So it simply doesn't fit.

But the song may refer to the worst disaster in British naval history: on 17 June 1940, the troopship Lancastria was sunk by German bombers off St. Nazaire while evacuating British troops from the Battle of France. The sip sank at ~4:30 in the afternoon, and it is estimated that 4500 - 5000 were killed. Only two lifeboats were launched. For morale reasons, Churchill slapped a gag order on the survivors and reports on the sinking were banned (although the news later surfaced).

Of course, the disaster is simply a metaphor, so specific historical references are barely relevant. But for lovers of this kind of trivia, there's yer nautical disaster.

[akoso]

I have no idea if that's what it's about or not... all I know is that I've heard Gord say one or two times that Nautical is not about what every one thinks it is... which is why I have been hesitant to buy into the Bismark idea that most people seem to believe.

[Stephen Dame]

Other sources say different. Poetic license has to be assumed as well. Anybody have the old Burning Church page saved anywhere?

It's about the Bismarck and a relationship remember, so at times things flow together for the sake of the song, perhaps at the expense of historical accuracy.

The Bismarck link is very well established, there's some more threads around here about it...

[grooveless touque]

<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://forum.hipbase.com/viewtopic.php?t=3141&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=bismarck&start=0">http://forum.hipbase.com/viewtopic.php? ... ck&start=0</a><!-- m -->

That's the thread where meanings of songs were debated. That link should highlight the word "Bismarck" anywhere it appears in the entire thread.

[Stephen Dame]

For whatever it's worth... one last time:

Nautical Disaster

The last words of a relationship meet the bone chilling screams of men left to die at sea. In perhaps the most chilling and poetic story The Tragically Hip have ever told, “Nautical Disaster” leaves the grizzly and heartless end of the Bismarck to rest on the shattered heart of our Everyman. The song uses the sinking of the ship, and the ruthless and inexcusable neglect shown to her condemned sailors, as a metaphor for a terrible break-up.

After having been discarded, disgraced and dealt a spirit-crushing blow from his former lover, our man finally falls asleep. He begins to dream, and finds himself as one of the unfortunate souls at sea as the Bismarck heads towards her final destination.

The German battleship Bismarck was laid down, ironically enough, on Canada Day, 1936. She was instantly the pride of the German fleet, and was one of many signs that the German government had no intention of following the terms of the Treaty of Versailles which forbade them to amass a fleet of war ships. The Bismarck was heavily armed, over 250 metres long, and quickly became the most feared vessel in the Atlantic. During her firs sustained battle of WWII, she sank the “unsinkable” British battleship Hood, and seriously damaged the battlecruiser Prince of Wales. Adolf Hitler, having paid a visit to the ship and her crew, made the Bismarck the undisputed #1 priority target of the Allies. Churchill was said to have made it a personal vendetta, he wanted the Bismarck sunk.

On May 26, 1941, at 49º 20' North, 21º 50' West, or put more succinctly: “Off the coast of France,” The Bismarck again met up with the British cruiser Prince of Wales, this time however, the PoW was accompanied by the Rodney, the King George V and sustained air strikes from the England. It was apparent that the Bismarck was in for the fight of her life. Having been made aware of the situation, Hitler is said to have made it clear that an escape was expected, the Bismarck could not go down, not under any circumstances.

The Bismarck began sustaining direct hits from torpedo, air and turret artillery fire at 8:47am, however she did not sink until 10:39am. One of her last dispatches was “Send U-boat for safe keeping of war diary!”

Her crew of over 4,000 dove, fell or simply sunk into the sea, those lucky enough to find lifeboats were able to stay afloat long enough to see the arrival of smaller German artillery, maintenance and rescue ships. Our dreamer found himself in one such “fortunate” situation. As most of the Bismarck’s crew lay dead or dying in the water, a disgraced Hitler gave the order to Grossadmiral Reader (The Supreme Comander of the German Navy) to neither approach the Bismarck nor offer her any help or rescue assistance of any kind. The German vessels that had previously approached the life boats and had already cast their life lines, had men clinging to their salvation while the sailors in life boats paddled feverishly towards the ships.

Following orders, the ships began to reel in their lines, pull away from the life boats, and leave their fellow countrymen to perish at sea. German sailors aboard the rescue ships were said to be haunted by the screams and pleas of their peers, and most chillingly, the sounds of their fingernails desperately clawing at the hulls of the fleeing ships.

At this terrible point, the dream is interrupted by a ringing phone: It’s her. She’s incoherent, apologetic and looking to reconcile.

As she continues to speak, visions of a nautical disaster remain fresh in his head. He realizes that infidelity and heart break are among the smallest of injustices and tragedies that take place everyday in the world. He knows that life hands out hell at times, but for all its sham, drudgery and broken promises: it’s still a wonderful world. Being heart broken sure beats being abandoned at sea.

After having been illuminated by a tragedy, with new perspective, our man realizes that sometimes you just have to be ruthless. He realizes that he’ll be better off if he just leaves her in his wake.

He interrupts her, “Anyway, Susan…” and tells her that she can keep talking, but at this point: her voice is like fingernails scratching on his hull.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bismarck info
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.kbismarck.com/">http://www.kbismarck.com/</a><!-- m -->

[scottitude]

I 'm not sure where the Bismarck notion came from, but I recall this being discussed quite extensively back in the day when the original Henhouse-Cuenet List was the predominant place for us to hang out and discuss all things Hip.

I'm pretty sure the actual inspiration for Nautical Disastter came from the failed "Operation Jubilee", a raid on the port of Dieppe, located on the English Channel coast of France. The attack force was comprised of 5,000 Canadians aided by 1,100 American Rangers and the R.A.F.

The "numbers" in the song are more in line with reference the to the Lancastria though, so perhasp Gord took some poetic license (Gord? Nah, never!) and combined the two tales to write one of the most beloved Hip tunes ever.

This thread could not be more apropos; tomorrow, August 19th is the anniversary of this tragic event.

For more information, follow this link: <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://home.ca.inter.net/~cstephens/dieppe/">http://home.ca.inter.net/~cstephens/dieppe/</a><!-- m --> ...or just google!

Cheers to the descendants of those brave souls who died that day.

[skippy the wonder dog]

Sorry, but I think it's time to kick the whole Bismarck thing off your pantleg and head for home.

All you have left to link the Bismarck to the song "poetic licence" and is the assertion that GD himself told you so. Given GD's habit of contradicting himself on what his songs are "about" (something he shares with Dylan and many others), I'd take that with a grain of salt.

The numbers don't match, the time doesn't match, the location barely matches (the Bismarck was 600 frigging miles away from the coast; that's in the open ocean, not "off the coast of France," and it's nowhere near a lighthouse). The order to leave men to drown never happened; U-Boat logs show they were specifically ordered to rescue survivors, but couldn't find them.

So the evidence is ... ?

You're free to give the song whatever interpretation you find, of course. But so is everyone else, and this repeated dogmatic assertion that it must be the Bismarck is starting to look pretty silly when compared to a close reading of the lyrics.

The Lancastria is a much better fit to the lyrics, but if someone comes up with a better one, I'd be happy to abandon it.

Is it relevant? Depends what you make of the details. The song seems to be about a relationship going south and the sinking is just a metaphor. but if you base a major part of your reading on the details of some specific sinking you want to link to the song, then it starts to matter.

Somewhat ironic, that quote....

[Tthip]

During the M@W release shows, Gord was asked this question.
He stated it was the Bismark.

[Stephen Dame]

During the M@W release shows, Gord was asked this question.
He stated it was the Bismark.

I have that on tape somewhere... some folks just want to believe what they wish, and that's fine. It'll always be the Bismarck to me.

For those of you concerened with details: David Milgaard didn't spend twenty years in jail, it was twenty three. So Gord doesn't always have to be a stickler to get his point across.

[skippy the wonder dog]

Yeah, I've read the Dieppe idea, too, but I don't really buy it.

The dying at Dieppe took place on land, not by drowning, and it was much fewer than 4000 killed.

I think that's a case of looking for a Canadian reference where one doesn't necessarily exist.

Actually, if you start exploring the secondary meanings you get from the Lancastria details, you can call into question the popular notion that this is about a relationship going south. How, for example, does Churchill's order that survivors not speak the incident or even acknowledge it happened relate to the last line of the song? Might he actually be saying, "I've already forgotten the conversation you asked me not to speak of?" Might this be a disaster within a relationship, after which they pick up the pieces (survivors) and carry on, agreed never to speak of it?

Never research anything, it only leads to more questions. :lol:

[skippy the wonder dog]

Okay, during another show, GD sings, "we were a hospital ship, I'm really glad you lost," which matches neither incident.

I've seen him say a lot of contradictory things about songs, so I think we need to take those statements with a grain of salt. There's a tendency to try to obscure the specifics and the meanings; no point in writing a song and then turning around to say, "this is what it's about."

What makes Nautical good as a lyric is that it's capable of differing interpretations. Personally, although the Lancastria details are the best fit I've found yet, I don't think there's any real need to link the song to any specific sinking at all.

[Stephen Dame]

I think too many folks are confusing "Based On" or "Inspired By" with "Carved In Stone By The Gods."

I think it's clearly, as Gord himself has stated, losely based on the melding of a bad break-up and a bad dream about the Bismarck.

...And if we based anything on what Gord said before the songs, we'd have to believe that a lot of the songs are based on a number of THC aided diatribes.

[grooveless touque]

I don't think the NUMBER of dead matters. I believe this song was not inspired by conscious thoughts about the historical facts, it's definitely based on a dream or hallucination (depending on whether he was drinking or smoking!)

If, in a dream, you saw a sea covered in bodies, the humanity of the moment would supercede any actual factual numbers...there might be 1,189 bodies out there but you're overwhelmed by and think there must be ten thousand of them. The "facts" of the matter are as blurred as any subject in any great art...there's ALWAYS mitigating factors!

[skippy the wonder dog]

Stephen, you're just funny. The only guy around here insisting something is carved in stone is ... you. You're also credited as the original author of that Bismarck thing, which explains a lot....

Do you think Eldorado is about a guy who can fellate himself? GD said that once.....

This idea that the discrepancies are just GD using poetic licence is pretty weak. For Wheat Kings, 20 years is still approximately 23 (and fits the meter, which 23 doesn't). But 4000 is not approximately 2000 (and he could just as easily sing "two thousand" as "four thousand"), and afternoon is not approximately morning. It's possible GD got the details wrong, of course (gasp -- GD err? Say it isn't so!) but I don't believe GD chooses his words arbitrarily or accidentally.

I don't know if GD has ever even heard of the Lancastria -- it's a pretty obscure disaster because it was officially hushed up. Up until this afternoon, I would have said that Nautical need not be based on anything specific, and that it simply doesn't match the specific incidents -- the Bismarck, Dieppe -- that people want to link it to. Now, I've had to admit that GD may be alluding to the sinking of the Lancastria. And if so, this could change my ideas of what the song is all about.

Ain't nothing carved in stone. It pays to keep an open mind.

[peregrine36]

I've always tried to stay out of these threads, (most likely because my imagery is so far removed from what everyone else thinks) but I've always seen images of D-Day in my mind when I hear the lyrics. I know now that is way far off base, but I have to admit that the Bismarck thing doesn't seem to float either.

The whole D-Day thing is surely a manifestation of American imagery, and Gord is certainly not American, but it just seemed to fit for me, at least partially anyway.

Keep 'em coming. I like to read what the general consensus is.

Later,

CJ